DAR Colours

[stem]

I have played around with the colours for the DAR extensively and was particularly pleased that Dan uploaded the model of No. 32 so that we could see what original colours looked like.

I must admit I was suprised though as the red on loco No. 32 is not a magenta red. From all reports the DAR colours were magenta and the yellow described as straw, but No. 32's red is more like a Tuscan leading me to believe that the guys at the shop remixed a CPR colour to be more like the old DAR magenta yet it was not exactly the same.

What I did to illustrate this was to apply the red as sampled from the model of No. 32 to the letters in the DAR logo and left the red that I had estimated from photos and descriptions around the ring. When the colours are dark like they normally are, there is no apparent difference but pushing the colours to very light reveals their base colours as magenta and tuscan.

Dan, is there any colour difference between the engine and the passenger car? Is there a clear shot of the car so that I could grab a colour sample off of it? As well, is there a sample of the yellow anywhere?

[Dan Conlin]

I will try to dig up a picture of the passenger car - but I think it is Tuscan as well. It is not as nice as nice a model as the locomotive - I think it was made later to dress up the Apple Blossom parade float.

You raise an interesting question about the colour. I think the DAR started with magenta, inheriting it from the old W&AR. (One account I found refered to it as "startling magenta"!) However I think as more CPR stock and practices got transferred to the DAR that they switched to Tuscan Red instead of magenta. My guess would be in the 1920s when more CPR style lettering came into use on the DAR locomotives but I am only speculating about that. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? As someone who loves making models of the DAR red and gold locomotives, I have used different types of red and always wondered!

Dan Conlin

[stem]

I too have read the read various old accounts and they all seem to be very clear that it was magenta. The yellow has been described as yellow but also as straw which I think is more accurate and revealing.

The description of magenta of course leads me to the same conclusion as you and I'll add that obviously the colour on the locos was significantly lighter to make the positive ID of magenta. I've looked at B&W photos and tried to estimate the "lightness" of the magenta but never came to anything conclusive using this technique. Any ideas or unknown to us technologies for estimating the colours from the image assets on the DARwiki?

I think I'll start a few sections on the DARwiki in the current colour section to at least list all the known colouring and lettering schemes and then we can work on colours and dates later.

[Dan Conlin]

Here's a start on the possible evolution of DAR locomotive paint schemes:

1894 to c. 1900
Colour: Magenta, gold lettering double striping
Headlight: Usually DAR cypher initials
Sanddome: Double pinstriping, number
Cab: Name, heavy Roman
Tender: "Dominion Atlantic", arched in heavy Roman over "Railway"

c. 1900 to c. 1918
Colour: Magenta, gold lettering and double striping
Headlight: Often DAR cypher initials
Sanddome: Double pinstriping, usually Number
Cab: Name, heavy Roman
Tender: "Dominion Atlantic" heavy Roman, straight

c. 1918 to c. 1928
Colour: Tuscan Red, gold lettering
Cab: Name, sometimes over small number, art deco sans-serif
Tender: Small "Dominion Atlantic", large number art deco sans-serif

c. 1929 - 1935
Colour: Tuscan Red, gold lettering and stripes
Sanddome: Number, pinstriping
Cab: Name, Roman
Tender: Land of Evangeline herald, single pinstripe frame

c. 1936 - c. 1942
Colour: Tuscan Red, gold or yellow lettering and stripes
Smokebox Front: Silver (1938-1942)
Sanddome: Sometimes Number
Running Board: Name on cast brass plaque
Cab: Number with pinstripe frame
Tender: Land of Evangeline herald, single pinstripe frame

c. 1943 - 1954
Colour: Black, yellow lettering
Cab: Number, pinstripe frame often omitted
Tender: Land of Evangeline herald, single pinstripe frame often omitted

1954 - 1959 (S-3s)
Colour: Tuscan Red and Grey, Tuscan letters & numbers
Dominion Atlantic

1959 - 1968 (SW1200s)
Colour: Tuscan Red and Grey, Tuscan letters & numbers
Canadian Pacific

1968 - 1994
Colour: Action Red, Multimark, white letters & numbers
CP Rail

Comments sought! I think there was lots of minor variation among individual locomotives but I think this was the overall flow.

Dan Conlin

[Paul Charland]

Hi Dan,

Might add a distinction between block Roman lettering on the SW and script lettering used on repaints after 1965.

Paul

[stem]

OK Dan, I copied this over to the DARwiki and will continue to work on it over there.

This looks extremely accurate as far as details of the schemes go. The period of time is going to be grey no matter how much work we put in unless we find some specific memos that order a colour scheme change. I will do my best to add a gallery photo illustrating each scheme.

[mountainrail]

Here is some paint trivia taken from Baldwin specification sheets for engine & tender paint

Windsor & Annapolis #10 - black, no striping, yellow letters
W&A #14,15,16, DAR #21, 23, 25,26,27 - maroon & gold as co's sample, paint furnished by RR Co.
DAR #32 & 33 - as above except paint now furnished by BLW.
DAR tender lettering up to #26 (1901) was arch style, on #27 (1903) it was straight line.
This narrows down the period of change to the straight line style of lettering.

Yarmouth & Annapolis #5 & 6 - olive green & gold (lettering gold)

Midland #4 - olive green & aluminium

I have a letter from Harold Jenkins I will dig out to get his comments on paint.

Jim O'Donnell

[mountainrail]

Following are comments quoted from a letter received from Harold Jenkins in 1980, regarding his memory of paint schemes on DAR steam locomotives.

"The boilers, cab, tender, were red with yellow lettering. Smoke Box, black, tender wheels and trucks were black, but the driving wheels were always red. The tires were painted white."
"It was rather a fine color red, known as "MAGENTA". I remember as a boy of seeing them change the paint color to black on some of the engines. (#32 as BLOMIDON, came out in black as D.A. 32) This I don't believe was popular, as she became red up until she was scrapped. Then for a short time around 1920 they painted some of them a very soft GREEN. I saw #25 and 508 in this combination. When the second war came along the red sort of died out, and everything was black."

This reference to green is the only time I ever heard of that. Interesting thing to persue.

Jim O'Donnell

[Dan Conlin]

Great info. I did a quick update of Steve's Colour page with the info from Paul and Jim. Wow, a green DAR locomotive - that's interesting to imagine!

Cheers, Dan Conlin

[downeastrailfan]

This is great stuff, guys. I never expected to learn this much about DAR steam engine colours.

[stem]

Jim. That's some great info on colour.

What is the name of the colour for the smoke box?

Now to pick nits to make sure I got it right. You said the Baldwin spec for No. 32 was "as above" but as above black or maroon? Considering Harolds observations that as a boy (1910?? - 1920??) No. 32 "came out in black" it makes me wonder. Second of all, the Balwin spec specifically said Maroon, which means by this time the magenta has already disappeared and been replaced by the Tuscan. Even though every one gets Maroon and Tuscan mixed up, there's no such mistake between Tuscan and Magenta. Or is there?

I've looked so many times at the builder's photo of No. 32 and wondered why it looked so different. The cab is so dark but the boiler has a satin finish instead of gloss and look fairly light. Lighter than the smoke box. The boiler straps are a little glossier but not much. Still, a glossy Tuscan can look fairly black so I still believe the cab and tender could be Tuscan. http://www.dardpi.ca/wiki/index.php?tit ... R0032d.jpg

Trying to match Harold Jenkins comments with photos again leads me to No. 32 and perhaps he was talking about this photo when he said No. 32 was all black as this again is so dark it there's a pretty good chance this is black:
http://www.dardpi.ca/wiki/index.php?tit ... R0032e.jpg

And this photo of No.25 always made me think it was green and now that Harold actually mentioned it plus named this very loco, I believe we may have a photo of Pontgrave painted green right here:
http://www.dardpi.ca/wiki/index.php?tit ... R0025a.jpg

[mountainrail]

Steve,
I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.
* smoke box color in Jenkins letter was black. I copied his letter exact, including puncuation etc., and some things are not clear.
* re "maroon" specified on Baldwin specs - this is what they called it on all the spec sheets, going back into the W&A engines also - I guess at Baldwin they thought of it as a shade of maroon, but it was actually what others called magenta. I don't know if the DAR actually referred to it as magenta or if that was coined by someone else who was more precise with color shades.
* 32 coming out in black as D A 32 - refer to image DAR 0032b - Angus shops overhauled #32 and returned it painted black, and DAR people were not pleased so they repainted it red at Kentville. Probably other engines came from Angus this way also, and were repainted in the "correct" colors and graphics at Kentville.
* "as above" referred to maroon. 32 & 33 were to be painted same as previous batch of engines, except DAR no longer supplying the paint. Sorry I wasn't clear on that.
* boiler color in builders photos - I believe the boiler jackets came in "Russian Iron" from the builders, which was a bluish-silver finish. I think this was likely painted red the first time the engine needed a repaint. It appears as though the boiler bands were painted red, as they definitely are different. Actually, on the spec sheets ,which are printed sheets where the titles are printed and the actual specs hand written in, on the painting section, "engine" is printed, and after it is handwritten "cab", which would lead one to believe the painting instructions were for the cab only. The tender is treated on a separate line.
Hope this clears thing up a bit,
Jim O'Donnell

[Dan Conlin]

Jim's points on colours match up with everything I know. Omar Lavallee in his book Canadian Pacific Steam Locomotives has an interesting short chapter on CPR locomotive paint schemes and he talks about the Russian Iron finish that came on new locomotives and was kept until they were serviced and repainted standard colours. That would explain the look of that builder's photo.

The only additional point I'd add is cab roofs. Graham McBride was the son of the wharf master in Digby and has vivid memories of the DAR red and gold locomotives. He told me they were usually black on DAR red locomotives because of soot and cinders.

I was warned when I first started museum work to beware that trying to interpret colours in black and white photos, especially reds, will drive you nuts. Depending on the lighting and the type of emulsion reds can register as everything from black to grey.

Having said all that, I wonder if the photo of No. 32 at Angus in 1924 is the occaision of the short lived black paint job that Harold Jenkins talks about:
http://www.dardpi.ca/wiki/index.php?tit ... R0032b.jpg

Aside from my guessing about the colour in the photo, the cab is lettered with the same number be describes "DA 32".

Dan Conlin

[stem]

Yes Dan, those reds do drive me nuts.

I don't think there's any doubt that the No. 32 at Angus ins black.

The Russian blue! I've seen this colour occaisionally on MSTS on models and wondered what the heck colour is this and now I have an explanation!

I'm going to repaint this model to No. 6 or 7. Looks pretty well the same to me. Close enough for horsehsoes anyway as the effort to start from scratch and model this all over is well beyond what I can do.

[mountainrail]

Glad to see the reference to cab roof color on the red engines. I always wondered about that, and I never seen any mention of it before. I think we've covered about every part of the locomotive now.
Another little bit of trivia re painting at BLW. The spec sheets have a place to fill in "Road No." and "Name". All the engines listed above have the number and name as we see from the rosters, except for three. Midland #4 (later DAR 28 "Pioneer") has "None" under name; DAR #32 has "None" for name (as can be seen from the builders photo), and W&A "Atalanta" (#14) has "None" under Road No.

Jim